Wiki

[Anthor]

Buttercup!! YOU ARE THE BEST! Thank you!

[Ahnaom]

Neil, I got to browse around your class and skill pages by writing my article and I have to say, you did a great job.

There is one thing that seems missing though and that helped me a lot to choose the class back in the day. The table that shows all the skills in one place with green and red cells that correspond to classes having that skill or not. That explains not only how certain classes are special but you can also clearly see which skills you won't get which can be as important.

Would it be possible to bring it back? Generic skills good be grouped somehow but I think it would help new players a lot. I know it did for me.

[Neil Tathers]

Neil, I got to browse around your class and skill pages by writing my article and I have to say, you did a great job.

There is one thing that seems missing though and that helped me a lot to choose the class back in the day. The table that shows all the skills in one place with green and red cells that correspond to classes having that skill or not. That explains not only how certain classes are special but you can also clearly see which skills you won't get which can be as important.

Would it be possible to bring it back? Generic skills good be grouped somehow but I think it would help new players a lot. I know it did for me.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.  I'll browse around and see.  But my giant skill page does break it down for you in black and white.

[Ahnaom]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.  I'll browse around and see.  But my giant skill page does break it down for you in black and white.

It looked like this:



Yes, your skill list is very good. But that table could be resurrected, maybe made more compact as well. It makes for a good quick reference after you have read the skill descriptions and clearly shows what you are losing by choosing a class. It should have been somewhere around, I remember using it.

[Tom Failur]

It should probably only include those skill which are not available to all. Melee skills are available to everyone so why bother having a row dedicated the them which will just be full of ticks?

[Ahnaom]

Replaced the old newbie guide with the final version of my article.

[Johan Crichton]

Disagree

* Shartak is obviously a browser game, but not everyone understands what a browser is (Google's a browser ya'know)

I don't think there are many people who don't know what a browser is.

Google have done the research which showed that people thought Google, Facebook, and Search Engines were the 'browser'.

* Restore the tips for starting out.

If you look at the article as a whole, almost every single of them is covered in other sections.

Having a separate section is useful however, as it means that you read that early, and its altogether.

* Restore any helpful links that you've hidden in the body.

Got rid of that entirely.

And the wonderful thing about  a wiki is that I can just restore it...

All those helpful links can be found in the front page of the wiki

Someone is reading the newcomers guide.  Why require them to click back to the front page to find those links?

Listing them all in the newbie guide is redundant and clusters the article with unnecessary information.

YMMV.  The guide should be about playing the game.  Not anything else.

Not sure

* Separate player from character.  Write primarily at the first.

Sorry, don't know what you mean by that.

Write at the player, not at the character.  Most people playing roleplaying games of the computer kind don't engage with the character, and this is a newcomer guide for players, not characters.  You seem to have a problem getting the terminology correct as well, e.g.:

There is no automatic recognition of their players either.

when it's no automatic recognition of the characters...

[Ahnaom]

Browsers

Google have done the research which showed that people thought Google, Facebook, and Search Engines were the 'browser'.

But you somehow feel OK to use the latin abbreviations as NB. Different people don't know different things, that's why I included the browser list. You can always look at the title bar and see one of those names...

Tips for starting out

Having a separate section is useful however, as it means that you read that early, and its altogether.

Newbies who don't know anything about the game would probably read the whole article anyway and every single thing is explained there. I was a newbie not a long time ago.
That list is totally random and subjective, these are not tips and not for starting out. Moreover, talking about lots of hazards or resupplying without naming the concrete dangers and items is just a waste of words and clusters the article without telling or teaching anything. And that whole thing doesn't fit in the article whatsoever.
I won't edit that out though.

Links

Someone is reading the newcomers guide.  Why require them to click back to the front page to find those links?

Because they are easily grouped there. And not just a long list with everything in it. Easier to navigate on the front page. Why duplicate the links? Left that alone though.

The guide should be about playing the game.  Not anything else.

Says who? And what fits into the category of playing? The original author admitted it was never finished, you can't know his/her original intentions either.

The guide was intended to give a good overview of the game, the roleplaying and the community. An introduction to everyone and a collection of links to learn more about different things. That was my intention and I wrote it keeping this purpose in mind. You can't just come and impose a different concept which is your subjective opinion anyway. If you need technical information about game mechanics, well the whole wiki is about that, barring some of the guides.

Write at the player, not at the character.  Most people playing roleplaying games of the computer kind don't engage with the character, and this is a newcomer guide for players, not characters.

Every player creates at least one character which then "lives" inside the game. There is no way to be just a player. It's not about roleplaying, it's just that there is no other way to be in the game. I don't see a problem to use the two as synonyms. What's the point of strict separation?

I have also looked at other guides which are doing exactly the same thing, using the two interchangeably. Why did you suddenly decide to pick on such minor things?

The "recognition of players" was my mistake though, thanks for correcting that.

[Neil Tathers]

It looked like this:



Yes, your skill list is very good. But that table could be resurrected, maybe made more compact as well. It makes for a good quick reference after you have read the skill descriptions and clearly shows what you are losing by choosing a class. It should have been somewhere around, I remember using it.

I can't find this anywhere, even looking through the old versions of the skills page.

[Ahnaom]

I can't find this anywhere, even looking through the old versions of the skills page.

Honestly, neither can I. I don't remember under which category or article name that was...
Anyway, what do you think about creating one? I think it would be a huge help for newbies.

[Johan Crichton]

Browsers

Google have done the research which showed that people thought Google, Facebook, and Search Engines were the 'browser'.

But you somehow feel OK to use the latin abbreviations as NB.

That's a good point and my 'NB' should be corrected to something like 'Please note'. 

The idea is, and I may fail to explain it with limited time at the moment, to collaboratively write the best content we can in the wiki.  That means reviewing content and questioning it's need as much as writing new or improved content.

Most people who hit the newcomers page will do so having already discovered the game itself.  That means that they've been shown the text already of:
Shartak - a free to play online role-playing game.  If you need to repeat that to the new players, then you can do it - but the question you could consider is: "Should I place this prominently at the top of the page or elsewhere?"

People read in interesting ways.  Some skim.  Some read a bit, and then if they think it's below them/above them give up.  If you're trying to explain key concepts of something, then it's better to look at what's already been explained to them - and what's left that you can focus on.

Tips for starting out

Having a separate section is useful however, as it means that you read that early, and its altogether.

...That list is totally random and subjective, these are not tips and not for starting out.

Maybe it's a matter of opinion, but I consider the tip:

Tutorial: Before doing anything else, follow the in-game tutorial. The tutorial is risk-free and grants 100 XP, enough to obtain your first skill of choice.

incredibly useful for new players.  The tutorial bonus XP is there aimed at new players - why not highlight it as a key tip?

Links

Someone is reading the newcomers guide.  Why require them to click back to the front page to find those links?

Because they are easily grouped there. And not just a long list with everything in it. Easier to navigate on the front page. Why duplicate the links?

Why not?  It's not like it costs anyone anything.  One of the benefits of web documents is that you can replicate information with little if any cost - the only real cost being maintaining discretely separate sections.

The guide should be about playing the game.  Not anything else.

Says who? And what fits into the category of playing? The original author admitted it was never finished, you can't know his/her original intentions either.

The guide was intended to give a good overview of the game, the roleplaying and the community.

I may not know the original author's intentions, but neither do you.  The original guide and the guide as it evolved focussed on the game first and firstmost.  There was very little about roleplaying or the community until your revision.

That was my intention and I wrote it keeping this purpose in mind. You can't just come and impose a different concept which is your subjective opinion anyway.

I don't believe I am.  I've been aware of the page since it was created, and have made my own minor additions over the years.  What I see is that you seem to want to add a lot about certain elements of the metagame that I think aren't required for what is named as a 'newcomers guide'.  Roleplaying and the community deserve their own pages - and a link from the Newcomers guide, but the Newcomers guide shouldn't become overly long and feature content that your average new player doesn't want to read right away.

Write at the player, not at the character.  Most people playing roleplaying games of the computer kind don't engage with the character, and this is a newcomer guide for players, not characters.

Every player creates at least one character which then "lives" inside the game. There is no way to be just a player.

I have no doubt that there are people who have created shartak characters that are essentially blank avatars that they direct around the island just as they direct their avatar in an FPS.

Player is not synonymous with character.  The point of separation is exactly that - to keep things separate.  OOC vs IC.  Who you are vs who your characters are.  Not getting angry with player A because their character killed yours.  Not killing character A because you know the player of that character and they did something you didn't like.

Ahnaom - please don't take this wrong - I'm trying to provide criticism and it may seem like nitpicking, but that's partially the point of wiki maintenance - finding minor things and correcting them.  Your contributions are appreciated, but I'd like you to consider that some things you don't consider important others have or do consider important.

[Ahnaom]

Your contributions are appreciated, but I'd like you to consider that some things you don't consider important others have or do consider important.

I'm fine with different opinions. And with technical changes, like adding and removing sections, changing order, updating and such. There is one thing you shouldn't do, however. It is not a good idea to have your own image or concept of what an article should look like and then project that upon the work of another person. It doesn't work that way. Newbie guide can be many things, everyone has his writing style and the way to organize things. As long as it is informative, easy to read and stays within the scope of the article, you shouldn't hurry to much to edit it. There are places in wiki that are in a far worse shape than my new guide.

Shartak - a free to play online role-playing game.  If you need to repeat that to the new players, then you can do it - but the question you could consider is: "Should I place this prominently at the top of the page or elsewhere?"

Well, free can mean many things. Some of the games are free to play but you have to buy the items. That entry explains about no advantage over other players and donations. Roleplaying should be mentioned somehow with a link to IC/OOC explanation. Not all people understand the difference, it does no harm to remind the others about creating characters.

Tutorial: Before doing anything else, follow the in-game tutorial. The tutorial is risk-free and grants 100 XP, enough to obtain your first skill of choice.

If you feel it is important, there are many ways to mention that without introducing that horrible draft-like list from the previous version. You can bold my text about the tutorial, bring that section higher. You can add additional line in the introduction of the article, "do the tutorial and read the rest of the wiki", etc. It so doesn't stand out being 1 of 5 generic statements...

Also, I'm fine with links in the newbie page. But please, put them into groups. And bring my uber map link back, there is no reason not to include that from the front page. It is one of the most obscure links there and one of the most useful.

the Newcomers guide shouldn't become overly long and feature content that your average new player doesn't want to read right away.

But that average player will probably need to read half of the wiki to understand the mechanics, items and such. Not on the first day but eventually you will have to do it. Having a broader introduction helps to delay that a bit, you have every basic thing in one place. The longer introduction means less reading in other places. People will need to get that info somehow, a baggage to start. Being concerned about impatient readers in a text game? I am not sure that's the group Shartak is aiming for.

I am not against cutting some of the parts out but think if a new player can do without them.

Player is not synonymous with character.  The point of separation is exactly that - to keep things separate.  OOC vs IC.

I am not arguing with that. Technically, you are right. All I am saying is that in the context or the article, you can use either in most cases. As long as there are no mistakes like recognition of the players, it does no harm. Class-specific guides are written in exactly the same manner. Making terms rigid would only make the text less alive without making the things more clear.

OOC and IC difference is explained in the roleplaying article. If you talk about searching or buying things or generally playing the game, there is no clear distinction between the two. In other words, not all actions are PvP interactions.

[snico]

Sorry to interrupt, but I have a different concern dealing with the wiki: the complete lack of information about the caves from Rakmogak to the mainland.

Currently:

A very extensive series of tunnels co-inciding with the introduction of Rakmogak and Arivo Island is currently being mapped.

If you've seen the map of the caves, it is very difficult to read.  However, I'm concerned so much with the map as I am with what players actually use the caves for.  In the Terrain section, there is no heading for Caves, and caves are only mentioned under the Mountain heading.  There is no mention of the animals found there, or fungi, or where to enter them.  I found under locations where the cave entrances are, but I really think Caves should be under Terrain, and include all these things.  I will play with this in my talk section and let you know what I come up with.

By the way, I'm writing a Cannibal Guide.

EDIT: I noticed that is no search rate for finding fungi on certain tunnel squares.  I'm going to suggest that it be researched by the Shartak Research Project.

[Buttercup]

Or, if there's enough difference of opinion, there's no rule that there can't be two different newbie guides. UD has over a dozen guides. *Edit* Speaking of which, the Gameplay page looks like it either needs further development, or could be merged with the Newcomer's Guide.

Being concerned about impatient readers in a text game?

A newbie guide should be short and to the point, as the purpose is to get them into the game as quickly as possible. They can read the rest of the wiki later when they're bored. Anywho... *does a quick scan of the guide* looks ok to me.

Anyway, I'd change this:

NB: There are no ways (beyond appealing to the game developer) to change your character type, class or home camp once you've started a character.

To this:

NB: There are no ways to change your character type, class or home camp once you've started a character.

Not sure we want to encourage every newb that drops by to send "Can you change my class??" messages. BTW, I always thought NB meant "no brainer". What's it mean?

In the tutorial section, I'd get rid of the "it's boring" part:

You will be presented with an option to follow an in-game tutorial. It might seem boring but is actually a very short and useful way to get familiar with the game. It will also grant you a good amount of Experience points (XP).

Items:

others have energy bars,

Energy bars? You mean the battery on a GPS? I don't think any items have an actual "bar" on the screen. Maybe different wording?

GPS. (not available to natives from the start)

You can buy them, so they are available, though you can't use them. Maybe:

GPS. (natives require Outsider Knowledge to use them)

You mentioned the wiki in two places. Not really sure about the point of mentioning the wiki while someone's reading the wiki, but meh. Probably a few other details, not seeing anything major, though. (Heh, probably be good to track down a newb/someone who's never played and ask their opinion.)

[Buttercup]

@snico: Yeah... Not a lot of wiki info on that...

Here's some map links, though: pic one, pic two, in spreadsheet form, and a forum thread about Cave Mapping.

I found a couple cave-related wiki pages, so you can decide what to do with those: Map_of_caves_near_Dalpok and Caves_and_tunnels. I'm guessing caves and tunnels is the best spot to put cave-related info. There's a mention of caves in Rakmogak and Sacred_Space. Not sure if you want/need to add anything there. The terrain page mentions the cave in at the end of the Dalpok Cave. That should probably be changed as it's not a dead end anymore.

Oo, a cannibal guide sounds cool. Who are you going to immortalize as your dinner example?